on the Duggar family making the news this week

[acroyear]

As I wrote elsewhere, I have no problem with the family since they obviously are disciplined and able to handle it (as far as public perceptions go).  It is not and should never be the governments place to interfere with family size, except through education in demostrating the problems of overpopulation and having that reach the point where smaller familes become the norm by acceptance of reason rather than domination of an oppressive government.  This has generally already been happening in this country, where most of our population increase in the last 20 years has been from immigration and longer lifespans, not births which have generally gone down.

I DO have a problem with the media for glorifying this family, however. The view as the Discovery show and Today Show coverage presents it can make it easily seem like multiple kids == panacea for family peace, rather than really showing the level of discipline on the kids and more importantly, self-discipline of the mother, as the reason that family is a success.

The issue is what is perceived as self-discipline. The critics you describe here see "having a million kids" as being undisciplined, because mostlarge families we see are like that, especially in urban areas. I see her as extremely self-disciplined in the way she manages them, almost like an office manager with one-on-ones and tasks lists and things like that so that no kid feels the "middle child(ren) is ignored" aspect that we know happens in families half that size elsewhere.

I also don't like the blanket "thanks to our faith" aspect of some of the promotional materials - yes, her discipline is a doctrine in that particular evangelical church, descendant from classic 17th century Calvanism, but the fact that she MAKES it a success by working at it may be missing - they may make it seem (as some have described it) as "have faith and it will all work", but really it is "I'm going to work at it because I have faith", the original Protestant work ethic that's actually lost in much of the country that still thinks they have it.

Even as much as I hate 17th century religious philosophy (being a child of the Enlightenment, I've discovered), I do believe that the modern (since the 1920s) evangelical movement has allowed the catch-phrases of their origins take over the original dogma and doctrine that had created those churches in the first place, and much of our current problems with that side of our political spectrum stem from that. Sheep have led sheep for so long that the thinkers who knew how those philosophies led to REAL personal and community success are long gone, and the gap is filled instead by, as the Doctor once described, "changing the facts to fit the theory".

This family is an exception to that, but they are few and far between.

Comments

Insane in the Membrane

[eiredrake.livejournal.com]

You know... I personally don't give a damn one way or another about this family. ButI really have no interest in seeing them on Tv.

I'm sure for some families 18 kids might work. Hell, for all we know it works for these guys. Of course for all we know when the cameras are off they're beating the shit out of them for minor infractions. But even if this lifestyle choice works for them, it's not going to work for everybody. In days since past ( especially amongst Catholic families ) having really big ass families was common place. Hell up until the early 1900s life expectancy was about 35 years, so the only way you could be sure your family was going to survive enough to breed and pass on your genes was to have a whole lot of kids.

These days though, this kind of behavior is vastly irresponsible. We've already got over six billion people on this planet, all competing for what meager resources the planet can provide. Even if this family manages to not go bat shit insane and keeps their ducks ( all of them ) in a row enough to make life bearable for themselves.... those kids are almost assured to grow up and have kids of their own. Each one adding in extra pressure on resources: More fuel, more food, more water, more electricity. Even if these guys grow their own food and so forth, they're still pulling from the same ground water everyone else does. Where does their waste go? Where do the emissions from their vehicles go? Where does their power come from.

The answer is that it goes into the same environment everyone else's does. We should be scaling down our families, not having enough to have our own football leagues. Anyone thinking that all 18+ of these kids ( cuz you know they're going to have more ) is going to behave 'as responsibly' as their parents is fooling themselves.

And that's not even talking about the stress of children. Given all the work that ONE kid has brought into my life I 'm pretty sure once I got past 4 I'd just go have my testicles removed and put into a block of concrete and dump them into the ocean.

Re: Insane in the Membrane

[dawntreader]

These days though, this kind of behavior is vastly irresponsible. We've already got over six billion people on this planet, all competing for what meager resources the planet can provide.

THAT'S my problem with it. whether or not they can afford the kids, the earth cannot afford the generations upon generations that will likely follow.

it's irresponsible to continue that kind of wanton population growth whether you can "afford" your own family unit or not.

Re: Insane in the Membrane

[acroyear70.livejournal.com]

The question comes in asking is it the government's job to teach such social responsibility (done very successfully in Europe and in more liberal parts of America), or is it the government's job to enforce such social responsibility through Law (done very unsuccessfully in China)?

There are those who would favor the latter. I disagree.

Re: Insane in the Membrane

[eiredrake.livejournal.com]

Call me a Libertarian ( I'm not ), but I'm of the mind that the government needs to stay the fuck out of the bedroom entirely. Add to that the Church. Neither entity needs to tell me thing fucking one about how I use my dangly bits. I really don't need Benny Hinn or Karl Rove or even Barack Obama deciding on whether or not I should be permitted to unleash my genes upon the world.

What needs to happen, and would be happening if not for the religious zealots Bush and other Presidents have been misleading into thinking abstinence only education actually does anything, is that we need to educate people and decide as a society to make it a social stigma to act in irresponsible ways. Hell that worked on people up until the industrial revolution to keep them in line with Church mores. Why cant we use the same techniques backed with reasoned, intelligent, scientific research that prove the behavior is irresponsible?

I mean... other than religious whackos sabotaging the efforts for their own twisted agendas that is.

Re: Insane in the Membrane

[fiona64.livejournal.com]

Here is *my* big issue with the Duggars. I agree that if one is pro-choice, that includes the choice to gestate and procreate.

However.

The Duggars lobby heavily to have birth control made unlawful, thus forcing *everyone* into their lifestyle if they were to (somehow) get their way.

Being pro-choice does not mean that one foregoes the right to opine on someone else's decisions -- I think the Duggars are incredibly irresponsible about their reproduction.

Furthermore, I believe that the elder girls are being psychologically abused by being forced to rear their siblings (to say nothing of Jim Bob's statement that they don't need to go to college, but the boys do ...). The Duggars are ID advocates, so ask yourself how good the "homeschooling" is ... and then throw in the fact that they practice Dobson's "Focus on the Family" crap, which has been repeatedly tied to religiously-motivated child abuse ...

We can agree to disagree on this matter, but I think that the whole Quiverful movement is just as nasty as FLDS and any other religious belief, no matter how sincerely held, that exists solely to benefit men and keep women "in their place."

Re: Insane in the Membrane

[acroyear70.livejournal.com]

ok, I wasn't sure if they were politically active or just "this is our lifestyle and it works with god's help".

NOW i'm pissed at them. the rest they can believe what they want until such time as it becomes political action.

ok, and "in their place"? we got nothing on our Iraqi friends on that count...

[ladyaelfwynn.livejournal.com]

I hate stories like this because, inevitably, they are presented not so much as freaks whose behaviour should be avoided but as upstanding citizens whose behaviour should be congratulated and emulated.

Very few families have the personalities necessary to do this; don't make it seem like a cake walk.

To me, it honestly isn't noteworthy. I don't care that she's had a bazillion kids. I don't need to know.

[mizjawnson.livejournal.com]

What are they in the news for now?

[acroyear70.livejournal.com]

Their Discovery Channel show is making the rounds and Discovery has been paying for them to do promotions on the talk circuit. Being mothers day, The Today Show lept at it with coverage by the weekday team on Friday and the weekend team yesterday.

along the way, since the Discovery Channel season one was filmed, they've had one more kid and announced on Friday she's pregnant with #18 (hence why all the links to that have been on msnbc.com, the news website for Today Show).

[stori-lundi.livejournal.com]

They've been in the news before when they had kid #17. I caught the last 10 mins or so of the show and pegged them for fundie freaks even though I didn't know they were part of the Quiverful movement until I looked them up online. All the daughters were in khaki skirts with their polo shirts. What girl wants to wear a khaki skirt to Disney? Maybe one or two but not all of them.

But I agree with ladyaelfwyn - I don't think they need to have their own TV show or paid trips to Disney - which I'm surprised they went to because a lot of fundies boycot them because of their gay friendly policies.

The program showed the Duggars meeting with another family with 14 kids. They too were painted as happy, well-adjusted kids just like any other American family - which we know they aren't.

Supposedly they are debt free - which I take to mean that their house is paid off as well as their cars. The other little factoid is that they eat on a budget of $2000/month. I'd like to see how they do it as well as pay off all their other bills.

I'd also like to see real interviews with the kids and not just "Oh I love my big family because there's always someone around." Please. What teen-ager doesn't want his or her own room and a little space.

[fiona64.livejournal.com]

Supposedly they are debt free

They "rely on donations from their community and their church," which means that someone else is footing the bills ... and Discovery Channel paid for the house.

[stori-lundi.livejournal.com]

See, I find that even more repulsive. If you can't support your kids on your own without donations, you shouldn't have them - be it 1 or 18.

The show John (or Jack, I can't remember) and Kate +8 bothers me even more. At least they seem a lot more realistic and aren't fundies.

[flaming-rose.livejournal.com]

Being an addict to all such shows I think we have to look at several things.

1. Taking donations should not be a crime. As for whether or not they can support their children, Mr. Dugger has been a statesmen and is a successful real estate agent. TLC paid for some of the improvements to their new home (not the entire thing) to make their own show look better and if they want to do that, why should the Duggers say no?

2. I am also pro-choice and don't believe in enormous families either. However this family has worked hard and has a large support network. I have relied on friends and family before and may do so again. This family has successfully raised a multitude of children and found ways to fund it- I give them props. If it is within their decisions based on their religion, fine as long as they are not influencing my choices.

3. I disagree with their religious choices. Welcome to America. My government may not dictate what religion I follow or how many children I have and should stay away from my womb. If I can support 18 kids, great, if not then I hope I can be smart enough to stop kids.

As for Jon & Kate +8 - they had 6 at one time. I applaud them for finding a way to fund their family and if going into show business allows them to provide for their family then who am I to complain?

If you don't care for the shows - don't watch them.

[fiona64.livejournal.com]

If you don't care for the shows - don't watch them.

I don't. I believe in voting with my feet.