Dude! Joe&#39;s Jottings, Mostly Junk

I don't know about that. Th amount paid may not be that big a deal (seeing as how they have more security in their jobs than most programmers). I know teachers who make a fair bit more than I do (like $10k or more). They still get the 8 weeks off in the summer. So their hourly rate is quite a bit better than mine.

However, many are leaving the profession not for the $ but for the stupidity of the parents. Teaching the kids that the sun shines out of their backsides, refusing to allow the kids to take responsiblility of messing up (e.g. not doing homework), harassing the teachers because "MyChild" got a 93 on a test, kids who have learned to threaten to sue, guns/knives on the kids, Zero Tolerance, etc..

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If the money was good enough to stay in the field, these other problems would have been overcome years ago. They fester and grow BECAUSE it's easier and more financially worth it to leave than to fight the trend and change it.

If someone REALLY wants to be a teacher AND is (financially) rewarded for it, they would work to solve these other problems. Instead, we've had 3 decades of people just walking away from it because, "it just isn't worth my time anymore". Yes, that's an exact quote.

And count my mother among those who (just) left education because the money just wasn't worth dealing with all that crap. If she was making what her experience, training, and talent were really worth, and had the support of school administrators rather than being told by them to "cut kid X some slack, his parents are financial backers", things would be different.

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seeing as how they have more security in their jobs than most programmers

And even this is debatable.

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had the support of school administrators rather than being told by them to "cut kid X some slack, his parents are financial backers", things would be different.

Which is what I was saying. Many aren't leaving simply for the $ but for other reasons. $ won't make up for garbage beyond a certain point. Also, if you LOVE your job, enough is as good as the proverbial feast. However, the current education set ups (No Child Left Behind, Zero Tolerance, Mainstreaming Everyone, etc.) is a problem. A friend of mine quick being a substitute years ago because some little snot-nosed brat threatened to sue him ... this was a 6th grader who was convinced that he didn't have to listen to the rules and obey them (unreasonable stuff like Sit Down). THAT mentality is killing things.

I am NOT saying that teachers shouldn't be well paid, I am saying that $ isn't the only problem and that in some areas, teachers do make very good salaries for their work-year.

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I see programmers being fired right and left due to changes in businesses, finances, contracts, etc..

I also think that programmers are overpaid but not as overpaid as professional athletes.

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griffinick.livejournal.com

It is not simply money, for the reasons you stated, but the desire for RESPECT and being treated like a professional. However, to be treated as a professional means they should be paid as a professional also. People are leaving the profession for a combination of reasons, and honestly I don't blame them. Teaching has become a thankless job. When was the last time you thanked your teachers for their hard work, caring and dedication to you as their student (not to pick on you specifically, but rather to make a point)?

With the new "teach to the tests" curriculum that "No Child Left Behind" has demanded, the creativity and freedom teachers once had in developing unique and personal teaching methods and styles have also been diminished. Frankly, I know that many teachers just simply do not find teaching as fulfilling anymore, especially when combined with a salary that often times is pitiful. It simply becomes "not worth it." I think a lot of things need to change before more people are enticed to go into secondary math and science education, but a salary increase that says to the teacher, "we are paying you like the professional you are," would certainly be a starting point.

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Beyond a certain point - my point is that it will move that point *considerably*, AND it would have, by increasing longer-term stability, helped teachers unite and fight these trends so they wouldn't have gotten to the point they are today.

At a certain point, you run. At a different point, you fight it. If they were paid to make it worth the fight, they would have fought it and not left.

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They may have more security, but it still doesn't amount to bunk when their starting salaries are less than half engineering ones (tenure doesn't apply in the first three years).

My dad retired because he didn't want to deal with guns being brought into schools.

My mother is still working, but she's a college professor. Yes, she's getting paid a tidy sum now, after 40 years in her profession. That tidy sum is about the same as what my husband is making now, with 15 years in the profession. She's actually gone past the salary cap (college compensation and primary education have two different caps, college is a higher cap, but they start out lower for adjunct professors) because of a deal she had with her college when she came in (she started their ESL program on her own with no assistance. They brought her in and told her in compensation she'd never have a salary cap).

A friend of mine at one point railed about how my mother's salary was WAY too high for a teacher. Mind you, she's a college professor, where the student tuitions are paying for her salary, so it's not coming from the public tax pool the same way. I was quite frankly insulted that she thought my mother was getting paid too much, considering my mother has 40 years of experience under her belt and is pretty much running her department (the official department head is twenty years younger than she is, and constantly looks to her for guidance. She isn't the head of the department only because she doesn't want the subsequent headaches that go with the paperwork).

Yeah, she's getting paid a tidy sum NOW. But most people assume that just because a teacher only works X number of hours in a classroom, that's all they do. They don't take into account the number of hours spent creating lesson plans, grading homework, grading exams, office hours, tutoring, and in some cases extra-curricular activites (my mother used to throw an international dinner with her students twice a year, since she teaches so many foreign students. I don't know if she does that anymore). I can recall years worth of my mother grading her student's papers on the kitchen table after dinner. She had classes starting at 8am, but she wouldn't usually get home until 5ish, I turned into a latch-key kid for the afternoons until she got home.

Yes, it's 8 weeks off in midsummer (unless, like her, you teach over the summers as well). But during that 8 weeks, most places expect you to be increasing your knowledge and ability to teach. I know that's usually when my mother was earning her master's degrees (she has two), 'cause I used to get dragged to class with her when I wasn't in summer camp.

My dad, after 35 years, had his salary cap out at somewhere around what I was earning four or five years ago. So my 5 years worth of engineering and programming was worth just as much as his 35 years of teaching was? Even if you add another two months into that, it still isn't comparable to what I'm earning today.

Yes, there are a few college professors who are earning more. The primary/grade school teachers cap out on the low end, though, and their pensions are dwindling away, they're no longer being invested in the way they used to be. And the college professors who earn the highest salaries are few and far between. Most of them still earn less than I do, for two to three times as much experience.

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thelongshot.livejournal.com

If someone REALLY wants to be a teacher AND is (financially) rewarded for it, they would work to solve these other problems. Instead, we've had 3 decades of people just walking away from it because, "it just isn't worth my time anymore". Yes, that's an exact quote.

Getting paid more doesn't make a crappy job better, it just makes you more willing to put up with a greater amount of BS.

While I do agree that teachers should get paid more, I'm not under the illusion that it is going to solve problems in our school systems. When I hear BS like

giraffeaholic's problems getting into Montgomery County's system, or the Post's series on the DC school system, it tells me that there are bigger problems out there that money isn't going to solve.

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Watch who your talking to. My experience, AS A PROGRAMMER, must be different from what you see out there.

As I said, its debatable. But I'm not debating it now.

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You know, Gabrielle actually told me my mother was one of the reasons why schools sucked up money, and that she didn't deserve to get paid what she did?

I almost had a coronary when I heard that one.

My mother is one of the exceptions, because she got hired off the salary grid, they needed an ESL teacher to start the program, and they needed one NOW. She wasn't interested in the job until they told her they wouldn't cap her like the other teachers were.

My mother earns about as much as my husband does now, but that's after 40 years worth of teaching, developing the entire department curriculum, and putting up with the crap they gave her for the longest time when she was trying to work for the students, and the school slapped her one for it. She still tries to work for the students, and teh school hates her for it, but they can't get rid of her until she chooses to retire. The fact that she's getting paid as well as she is makes up for the other crap she's taking, but she's an exception to the rule in what she gets paid.

If my dad were still working in teaching, he'd be getting paid less than I am.

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Speaking as an N of one, I am still in contact with one of my high school teachers (class of 87) that I am profoundly grateful for the work she did. I did thank the teachers who cared for us as people and did their best. I will admit to not thanking the ones who insisted that the SLRD kids and the TAG kids achieve the same standards.

I don't speak as much to my college teachers but several knew they were appreciated. I still see some every now and again and we greet each other.

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Actually, what I think part of the problem is, is that they're losing good teachers because they *aren't* willing to put up with the BS anymore, and more money might help them do so.

My dad was teacher of the year in his district, three years in a row. That's when he retired. His salary had been capped at a lower salary than I was earning only several years out of school, and he wasn't willing to put up with the BS anymore for what he was earning. Had he been able to earn more, he might have put up with more. His students lost one hell of a good teacher because he wasn't willing to put up with the garbage he got for the amount of money he was earning.

He retired and is now spending a lot of his time in investments, and earning a tidy sum there for a lot less work and a lot less bullshit.

The more money you pay, the bigger your applicant pool will become. The bigger your applicant pool, the more likely you will be to get someone who can actually *teach*.

Right now, a lot of the people who are teaching are the ones who couldn't make it elsewhere (no offense to people who are good teachers like my mother and

griffinick). When I was taking classes in college, a lot of them were being taught by people who didn't WANT to teach, they were there because they were forced into it by the curriculum. Many would rather research, and many would rather not be in a classroom, period. Mind you, that's on a college level. On a grade school level, they're not being paid enough to really want to make it worth their while to deal with the crap they're getting, and the current "no child allowed ahead" programs mean the teachers are teaching to a test, and nothing more, which means kids are getting shit for an education.

No, money isn't the only factor, but you'll get a lot more people wanting to do it, and therefore more competition and more qualified teachers, if you offer them something other than "job satisfaction" that isn't there anymore.

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tchwrtr.livejournal.com

Yes, teachers don't get paid enough. I worked a private school, where they get paid less, and where on top of lesson planning and classtime and going to sports things you were also expected to lead some sort of after-school activity--I replaced the cheering squad teacher, and the school leads were disappointed when I turned out not to be an exact copy of the teacher that left.

I left the profession for a few reasons--I had had enough of the politics in schools, and I did not have the support of the administration. When your manager doesn't back you up, and supports the "other side", well. You go.

If I had been employed by another school I had done a lot of long-term sub work at, first off I probably wouldn't have met a lot of you, and I might even have still been teaching now. The principal had been the vice principal at my high school when I was there. I cried in that man's office one day as a teacher, and he understood. And supported his team.

Higher pay would help go a long way to showing that the general public, or even the private school system, cares about the education of their children. Teachers should hold respect, and be revered in their community. They give us the future leaders, help teach our children to think for themselves (so they'll move out eventually, and be able to thrive on their own), and so much more.

They teach the people who will decide where most of us live when we can no longer decide for ourselves. I'd think that we want that education to be the best money can buy. Which means paying TEACHERS, not ball players.

Sorry. Long-standing rant. This is a short version.

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I left the profession for a few reasons--I had had enough of the politics in schools, and I did not have the support of the administration. When your manager doesn't back you up, and supports the "other side", well. You go.

Precisely the final straw and why my mom simply retired from teaching rather than searching for a new job this last summer.

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The Japanese culture reveres their teachers. My mother taught a bunch of Matsushita employees English one summer. When their class time was done, they not only had a banquet in her honor and put her at the high table, but they gave her a small TV (13 inch) as a token of appreciation for what she had done for them.

I'm not asking that all students bring a small household appliance in as a gesture of thanks to their teachers... But she earned more money and respect in that little two-month class than she ever did during any two-month period at any other time.

I'm not even in the teaching profession, but I come from a family of them. I know what they go through, and what kind of shit they earn, and how they get treated. And the whole thing is *BULLSHIT*. Invest in the education of your people and you get lower crime, you get more marketable people, your economy goes up... Our futures depend upon what we are teaching the children of today. And yet nobody wants to pay shit to the people who are responsible for the vast majority of the educations of their children.

It's odd, because they're willing to pay through the nose for their children to get Ivy League educations, but they're not willing to pay for their children to get the basics. And unless you teach those children well from the time they're young, all the Ivy League in the world isn't going to help.

I'm on your side of the rant, hon.

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cozit.livejournal.com

And that's one of the biggest differences between the teachers you get one place and teachers you get another... the level of BS and the level of support that you do or don't get from district, supervisors, and administration.

Number one reason that Howard Co.'s still got quite a lot of *great* teachers, and still pulls in many good applicants - pay's not as good in at least two or three other counties in the state (I think we were lower than that a couple years ago, but I haven't the foggiest now).

Parents too... not that I don't get garbage from some (hey, you all know that library media specialists don't do anything besides read kids stories and help them find books to check out, right? Yeah, bah humbug... hasn't been that way in well over 17 years to my knowledge, and probably more before that... and even less so now than then... but I had at *least* 10 parents and sadly 2 teachers that I had to "re-educate" last year.

Of course, now I'm just wishing I was a lot better at the job than I am (though I *think* I'm making improvements)... especially as it'd be considerably more work to get back into computers now than it would have been when I first got my degree (and I want to even less now... *g* Right now, most of what I do with computers is "play" with them, and teach kids to do all that fun stuff playing with Word, on-line databases, PowerPoint, etc.... hey, my definition of "play" doesn't always involve games! :-)

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cozit.livejournal.com

If in a large enough school system, maybe... those who are "surplused out" have to top the list for those being hired into new slots elsewhere in my county. But if you work for a smaller district, even if you've got tenure you could fall victim to what happens when there are fewer students... or budgets get cut. Heck, there are at least 4 county-wide systems out west that I know of for certain that cut all of their media specialists... leaving maybe a couple for the entire county, mostly to oversee their school library collections (though at least one county has boxed up those as well - or farmed them back out to the teachers :-( )

Then there's what happens when someone is accused of abuse.. even if they're cleared later, sometimes it's impossible, or next to impossible to get re-hired anywhere.. all because some kid or parent decided to "get back at" a teacher for something. Or like that poor substitute teacher who made the news because some kid hit a porn pop-up laden site in her class (on purpose), and she couldn't get it to stop, had been told not to turn off the computer under any cirucumstances, and received no help from the administration when asked... she's under charges for corrupting minors (among other things) because several classes were in that room, and a number of them saw the screen... *all* of whom (after the first few) had to do some distracting and manuvering on purpose in order to manage that trick, as she'd re-angled the screen away from them, the best she could, given the circumstances. (I believe she was found guilty, but is still fighting it through appeals, with a great deal of support from quite a few places)

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cozit.livejournal.com

Sure they are willing to pay for their little darlings to get the education... they're just not willing to pay for *other* kids to get the basics and to support the schools in other ways. So many of those who pay through the nose *don't* go to public schools... and then turn around and say they shouldn't be paying taxes for others to do so. Then there are those who *had* the public education, but have no kids, so claim they shouldn't have to pay. (just think what PG, Anne Arundel, DC and Baltimore schools *could* be if everyone went *and* parents actually volunteered and showed interest... yes... some parents do, but...)

Um, yeah... can you imagine what their lives would end up if there *wasn't* public education? But of course, their private education never taught them enough logic or big picture thinking to actually figure that one out... Guess they think it is (or should be) serfs and lord of the manors still.. too bad we've gone rather more tech than that stage.
:-S

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thatliardiego.livejournal.com

I also think that programmers are overpaid but not as overpaid as professional athletes.

Apples ≠ oranges.

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thatwasjen

Sure they are willing to pay for their little darlings to get the education... they're just not willing to pay for *other* kids

I just cannot figure this out. I mean, I don't have children, but I damn well want other people's children to have the best possible education. I know that it well help me and everyone else in the long run.

I also have concerns with the fact that parental volunteers are necessary to the effective functioning of a school. Parents should take responsbility for supporting their children in their education, by helping with homework and such, but I don't think it makes sense that schools need parental help to function.

Teaching is a profession. Like medicine and law, it requires specialized postgraduate education, and like doctors and lawyers, teachers are essential to the public welfare. Like most of the rest of you, I find it baffling that most people can't seem to realize this or, if they do, aren't willing to put their money where their mouths are.

(That reminds me that the crappy state of medicine, which is partly due to the education-as-indentured-servitude bargain, is a whole other problem.)

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