being weirded out...

[acroyear]

Revelation: I'm no longer the "typical" Dr. Who fan.  Up until 1 year ago, there was no such thing as a Dr. Who fan who hadn't "seen 'em all".

Now, a whole new generation is being introduced to Who and all the same arguments we'd collectively resolved 20 years ago on the campiness, the bad effects, the occasional total bomb stories (and the debates over the quality of the good ones), "who's responsible for this crap?", etc, are happening all over again...

And I'm just too tired (and busy) to get into it and correct some of the really bad interpretations from people who haven't had 20 years to learn all the behind-the-scenes reasons why things were what they were.

Comments

[neadods.livejournal.com]

The arguments were resolved? Because I'm seeing an awful lot of grief from Old-Schoolers about stuff I had expected to be put behind the fandom decades ago. As far as I've seen, a great deal of the grief is boiling down to new ways of phrasing "My Doctor was TEH BESTEST EVAH and if you like any other Doctor, you suxxors!" As if the fandom hasn't been wanking about how terribly things are going downhill ever since Hartnell fans saw Patrick Troughton at the console...

I'm more than slightly curious to see the post(s) that prompted this, maybe I could help. (Or possibly not. I'm avoiding Outpost Gallifrey's forums from their reputation; I'm too tired to explain that being old school in high school isn't stopping me from embracing new school now. And I wouldn't post on TWOP on a bet.)

[neadods.livejournal.com]

PS - do you want me to ask M to bring your tapes back on Sunday?

[acroyear70.livejournal.com]

i'm more talking about arguments about specific episodes, not the series as a whole. and also if not resolved collectively, at least resolved individually/internally.

and actually, Troughton's first seasons were warmly embraced once the shock factor wore off, just like every new Doctor except Tom Baker to Davison ("he's too wimpy") and Davison to Colin Baker ("he's too harsh").

the post was neohippie1's review of Hand of Fear in the LJ group, and the discussion of hugs that followed (specifically the fact, which I didn't mention in writing, that I can name every instance where a Doctor hugged someone before the new series and the fact that the fans of the new notice the lack of hugging in Doctors past -- for them, the lack of hugs in the past is a big deal; for me, i'm still getting used to the extensive hugging going on in the new series).

[acroyear70.livejournal.com]

that would be fine.

From where I'm sitting...

[greendalek.livejournal.com]

Nothing wrong with old-schooling; my waaaaay-too-detailed knowledge of the old series hasn't diminished my appreciation for the new series one whit. At its core it's always going to be the same story: whimsical, good-hearted alien man of mystery flits about the cosmos in a police public call box and has really weird adventures with engaging human sidekicks in tow. Whether the SFX are cutting-edge or one step below Ed Wood doesn't really bother me, and I'm also totally comfortable with the truism that for every one "Genesis of the Daleks" or "Caves of Androzani" there are going to be ten "Underworld"'s or "Timelash"'s.

Maybe I'm just too tired and/or busy too; but I regard a lot of those heated "Davros-can't-be-the-Emperor-Dalek-because-the-plot-continuity-in-Episode-5,080-said..." discussions as, ultimately, not really part of the whole Doctor Who Experience (cue the Hendrix music). I relegate that stuff to the same sphere wherein the "Classic-Galactica-vs-New-Galactica" and the "Han Shot First" arguments dwell --they don't have a whole heck of a lot to do with the stories that spawned them, either.

A few years back I wrote a letter to what used to be "Star Wars Galaxy" magazine and decried the proliferation of such angry debates --why were people getting into such passionate shouting matches about the manufacturer of Boba Fett's blaster? Weren't we (i.e., Star Wars fans) all guests in Mr. Lucas's universe, where the eternal themes of triumphing against impossible odds, the seduction of the Dark Side, adventure, bravery, and selflessness were supposed to be the timeless themes that captured us? The arguments came and went, but ultimately Star Wars stuck around.

I think the Doctor will, in the long run, come out all this of just as unfazed and unruffled as ever. Good storytelling just plain doesn't go away --it just reinvents the fiddly details from time to time. Explains why we're still enthralled by Lord of the Rings, the Wizard of Oz, Robin Hood, King Arthur, and the Greek myths regardless of how much time has passed. And, whatever its flaws, I think Doctor Who does qualify as good storytelling, otherwise the series wouldn't have made it to 1964, let alone 2006!

[neadods.livejournal.com]

Ah, I should go back and read that - I kind of whipped through the original post this morning and never went back to read comments. I'm skidding along the edges of the actual organized Who fandom, trying to figure out how far I want to go in.

once the shock factor wore off

Well, that's the thing. I think there are some people who don't get over the shock factor.

for them, the lack of hugs in the past is a big deal

Oh, dear. Yeah, it is getting exhausting to say "Hello, broadcast standards have changed just a *tad* over the last 40 years! Really. Much different."

The hugging... I can see both sides of this. It's a huge departure from the previous standards (not to mention the kissing!) and the size of the change can be troubling.

I had been wondering if your post had been prompted by something from Outpost Gallifrey - a place I'm avoiding in part because I don't have time to keep up with the LJ communities and in part because I'm getting the impression that things haven't so much been settled there as ossified by a set of self-appointed SMOFs.

[acroyear70.livejournal.com]

its one of those cases where if there had been a series running non-stop from 1989 to 2006 we'd be at this point now (or maybe a few years earlier) with the "First time X happened" stuff being done with long ago.

however, i wouldn't rate hugging as a "broadcast standard" thing so much as a reflection of modern cultural change. Jack's affections as he leaves to mount the defense in Parting of the Ways are a definite case of sci-fi pushing the envelope. I wonder if (given that they have to cut about 2 minutes of each for commercial time) sci-fi channel will actually leave that segment intact.

On the other hand, RTD's vision of the future ("it'll be exactly like the present because everybody's going to go retro!") is getting a little old. probably realistic, but its getting old, especially when he sticks 50,000 years between two stories in the same location and yet has exactly the same culture present. When the classic series did that (Ark in Space, then later the 5000 years earlier Revenge of the Cybermen), they definitely showed that human culture had changed considerably as a result of what was going on over that time. RTD seriously underestimates long-term change, so he keeps things looking like today (granted, *some* of that is due to budget - modern clothes and music are cheaper than inventing a future).

i only read Outpost Gallifrey for the Big Finish reviews since those cds are somewhat expensive so i need to be selective. They often disagree with the increasingly negative reviews coming from DWM (who haven't seemed to like one since before Zagreus). DWM's reviews are from critics, not fans, and the attitude is different.

[neadods.livejournal.com]

however, i wouldn't rate hugging as a "broadcast standard" thing so much as a reflection of modern cultural change.

Yes and no - there was that whole "Davison can't touch his companions" thing going on when other characters were allowed to touch each other onscreen at the time. That was a broadcast decision, whereas the easy contact going on in the new series is very much a modern thing. (And an interpretation thing - Doctor Four made it very clear that he didn't like mushy stuff, so it would be fairly out of character for him to be hugging all the time.)

I'll be shocked if Sci Fi airs that kiss - and pissed if they don't, because it is a part of the character. (I'm half worried about them editing the Region 1 DVDs as well, but since nobody has them yet, nobody knows.)

I will agree that RTD isn't going as far as he could with the whole show concept - not only with the "meet the New Earth, same as the Old Earth" but by keeping the show so Earth-centric in the first place. While I like that he's dealing with Rose's family and friends, he doesn't need to devote *quite* that much time to them. I'm half wondering if a bigger budget will rattle loose if/as Who gains popularity.

Between talking to you and to Kevin (of Liz Sladen fanclub fame), I'm starting to feel that the biggest thing I've missed out on all these years isn't the conventions or the fan chat, it's all those issues of Dr. Who Monthly!

As for the negativity of the critics, I rather feel the same way about some of the regular reviewers for Renaissance magazine. I don't know who spit in their mead, but oy!

OG's webpage says that their audio section will return in May - do you know what's up with that?

I've been treating Dr. Who eps like a library and making up my own mind - if I listen once to an audio and dislike it, it disappears from the hard drive, whereas if I like it, I go order a real copy. Usually from Amazon.co.uk rather than Big Finish for two reasons - first, Amazon.co.uk has a slight discount on the Big Finish audios, although it tends to be eaten up in the airmail costs. Second, Big Finish only takes Visa/MasterCard, and that whole subscription thing confuses me.

Re: From where I'm sitting...

[neadods.livejournal.com]

I think Doctor Who does qualify as good storytelling, otherwise the series wouldn't have made it to 1964, let alone 2006!

To steal what I keep saying about Star Trek original: When you don't have a name, you don't have a budget, and you don't have a chance, what do you have? Storytelling and heart.

Re: From where I'm sitting...

[greendalek.livejournal.com]

Well said. And by that criteria, I'd also add Firefly to the list: that series had no big-name stars, a teeny budget, and was pretty much predestined to fail --yet what it DID have (storytelling and heart) made it mighty.

Re: From where I'm sitting...

[neadods.livejournal.com]

I could never get into Firefly, but I agree that it had something that made it special; otherwise, so few episodes would never have gotten such a passionate fandom.

Also - Icon love!

[acroyear70.livejournal.com]

subscription is simple: pay in advance and they send you the cds one per month as they're released (along with a freebie or two including cds that have making-of interviews).

i'm used to that because i've been on subscription-based systems for King Crimson and Marillion.

OG's webpage says that their audio section will return in May - do you know what's up with that?

not sure what you're talking about.

Re: From where I'm sitting...

[acroyear70.livejournal.com]

I've seen a few now (having bought it for Cyd and finally found the time) and its ok. it has a very similar feel to it as 90s sci-fi 1-season shows like Earth 2 and Space: Above and Beyond while still having the kind of edge of the new Galactica.

[neadods.livejournal.com]

Thing is, I don't necessarily *want* each CD as it's released. I was never a completist, and would be just as happy to permanently wash my hands of some doctors and companions. Big Finish doesn't seem to encourage ala carte ordering, which is why I'm probably going to look at the release info on Big Finish but buy it through Amazon.

(That said, I'm so dying for Kingmaker to come out. Doctor the Fifth + Richard the Third is just too tempting to pass up!)

http://www.gallifreyone.com/guides-bigfinish.php - "The Outpost Gallifrey Big Finish Doctor Who Audio Guide is currently offline due to our server move and will return in late April / early May 2006."

[acroyear70.livejournal.com]

well, subscription is an investment and a risk, yada yada.

although "Add to shopping basket (non-UK)" doesn't seem that difficult to find. not trying to seem rude, but the link is unmistakeable on every page....

i hadn't been looking at the guides, just the reviews.

[neadods.livejournal.com]

Oh, the non-sub link was really easy to find... I had a pretty big shopping cart until I found out that they only took credit cards that I'm not using. Then it was back to Amazon.

I just don't like the risk part of the subscription. I like to have more control over what I'm getting in return for my $$.

Is there a section where they have reviews, or are they scattered in the forums? I don't know my way about OG.

[acroyear70.livejournal.com]

reviews is a menu item at the top. doesn't matter if you click the button or its dropdown, it goes to the same page: http://www.gallifreyone.com/reviews.php

[neadods.livejournal.com]

Backup on last comment - while Big Finish has ala carte ordering, they don't seem to encourage it much. On each page you can find an individual link to order, but I find it very hard to just browse, and I haven't found any kind of a "search" link at all. The whole mindset is that you will take the series completely and linearly and not pick and choose and rummage unless you put extra work into looking for what you want.