acroyear | Edited: (was Oh I'm pissed of now...)

Edited: (was Oh I'm pissed of now...)

The original post here was an emotional reaction to a confusing situation, based on incomplete (and certainly incorrect) information and first thoughts. My knowledge of what gorillas normally are like, as reasonably peaceful animals particularly in their native habitats, fell into extreme conflict with the way the situation was described, and so certainly my first reaction was that the "humans" were to blame.

The thread of discussion that follows is pretty educational, both on the situation, and on the different types of counter-arguments to bring rational thought back to correct an emotional impulse.

To

whizzrjohn and other police officers, I apologize sincerely for my final comment in the original post. When an officer says in a report or press conference that "there was no other option" (or relatedly, "we did what we were trained to do"), I'll try to be more critical of my own cynicism and skepticism before opening my dumb mouth in being critical of them.

'cause of this example of extreme stupidity and unnecessary violence out of utter ignorance.

Animals just want to be left alone. If its coming your direction, get out of the fucking way. Its that simple. It ain't gonna attack anybody unless you threaten it, or its hungry and you either have, or are, food. If it charged you, its 'cause you intentionally looked threatening to it and you were the stupid one. You don't corner an animal the same way you might corner a person on the run...

I want the SPCA to file a lawsuit against the two cops. Firing 3 shots is signs you panicked, not signs you were being defensive, or asserting that you were "protecting civilians".

Bastards.

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I don't see the argument for cruelty here. The gorilla had been out for 40 minutes, zoo officials were not able to get a clear shot with tranqs, the gorilla had alread injured four people, including chewing on the head of a toddler. While I hate that the gorilla died, and I'm sure that he was confused and frightened, should the police have waited until he attacked another child? Or left the zoo and into the city? As for three shots, my understanding is that when a cop chooses to use their gun, it's always to kill, and it's usually a full set of rounds in case the first shot doesn't do the job. That's training, not panic.

One article said some kids were taunting the gorilla just before he escaped. If you want to blame someone, find those kids, and put them in the gorilla cage for a while.

As for three shots, my understanding is that when a cop chooses to use their gun, it's always to kill, and it's usually a full set of rounds in case the first shot doesn't do the job. -- That to me (if its true, which I sincerely doubt) is utter garbage. Also, it applies to firing against an individual who has a gun and may/will likely fire back.

It does NOT apply against an unarmed or close-ranged (knife) individual who will fall back on the impact and likely not be in a position to threaten after the first hit. "Aim for the leg" is still a very valid option, particularly with apes who have the largest rear limbs of any of the ape family, including us. For that matter, a good hit to the shoulder will also knock an ape for a loop, as they're also abnormally large.

and "taunting" is relative. the kids weren't *THAT* close to it, from the way the cage/pen is described.

and for that matter, the gorilla was "cornered" when it was shot. WHERE WERE THE TRANQS THEN?

how did two cops get to be in a position that several zookeepers trained in using the tranq guns were unable to be in?

I've gotta disagree with you this time. I think that it sucks they had to kill the gorilla, but let's face it: gorillas are much stronger than we are. much. they could back-hand you and snap your neck if they felt the need.

The cops, in my opinion, did not panic. An animal, potentially pissed off and having the strength to seriously injure anyone it came in contact with, was a threat to the police and as such was neutralized the way they cops had been trained.

I personally would have preferred that they tranq the gorilla, but the keepers most likely weren't trained like a cop would have been in as much as firearms. Perhaps the cops could have used the tranq guns, but then perhaps it was feared that the tranq wouldn't take effect soon enough to prevent the primate from say... ripping one of the cops arms off.

I hold any animal's life higher than a humans. I sincerely think that it could have been handled better and let the gorilla alive, but it was a threat to the public who was there. There are already going to be lawsuits from the people injured (count on that...) and if someone had gotten seriously injured, the zoo might have been even more financial hurt and perhaps forced to close.

Most people would choose to put an animal down over a human. I wouldn't, but then I'm a hippy tree-hugger who thinks that animals are smarter than we are.

not exactly....

I HAVE worked with large exotic animals while volunteering at the Philadelphia Zoo many years ago. It was an invaluable experience I wouldnt trade for the world nor will I EVER go back to again.

It is NOT that simple and if you knew ANYTHING in detail about wild animals, which can ONLY be acquired while WORKING with them, you would know that what you ask to be done is completely INANE.

Not only that, you would even DARE to sacrifice the careers these officers who also have families to support because of their inexperience in handling large animals and they had NO idea if it would hurt them or not is BLATENTLY WRONG.

SAME as my comments from your post yesterday...unless people thoroughly KNOW what happened (and unless you were the gorilla or officers you DONT KNOW) then they should voice their opinions BUT CLAM IT before their inane "demands" ruin other people's lives...and believe it or not, innocent animals'.

We now have lost the life of a gorilla...who was intelligent enough to get out of his enclosure but NOT familiar with what he was getting into (excitement of getting OUT and anxiety/nervousness anxiety of a gorilla ALWAYS = danger), hence his reactions to the people he injured.

This is another blatent example of how humans should have LEFT these animals WHERE they came from loooong ago...but NOW we couldnt even if we wanted to because of not only from the loss of habitat but also poachers and a variety of other things.

We have seriously erred in the fact that these animals do NOT deserve to be out of their natural habitat any more than we do.

Think about it...how would you feel if you were caged, even in a specialized habitat, and not permitted to go where you wish when you wished because THAT was what you were designed to do. NEVERMIND...we already are...but not as constricted as those species in zoos.

Someone told me the other day that zoos are the animals only hope for survival...Survivial for WHAT? To be caged with only a minute percentage returned to their wild habitat due to humanity's greed? To entertain humans on a weekend (reverse the picture...how would you feel)?

Way to go humans...yet another thing royally screwed up where innocent animals suffer at the hands of humans.

and unfortunately from the video camera footage, etc., the gorilla unfortunately had to die...PERIOD.

I HATE the fact that an animal had to die but the REALITY is it had to, PERIOD!

*******

It does NOT apply against an unarmed or close-ranged (knife) individual who will fall back on the impact and likely not be in a position to threaten after the first hit. "Aim for the leg" is still a very valid option, particularly with apes who have the largest rear limbs of any of the ape family, including us. For that matter, a good hit to the shoulder will also knock an ape for a loop, as they're also abnormally large.
**********
AGAIN...you dont know large animals thoroughly enough or you wouldnt even say the above.

and "taunting" is relative. the kids weren't *THAT* close to it, from the way the cage/pen is described.
*****
WTF!? Relative? I HAVE seen what happens to MANY wild animals who are "taunted" by utter garbage. I agree with your friend...see how much they would want to taunt if placed in the cage of the animal. THIS is UNFORGIVEABLE and INEXCUSABLE and WRONG! If I ever see your kids doing this at a zoo, I'll take them and you WONT be getting them back!

and for that matter, the gorilla was "cornered" when it was shot. WHERE WERE THE TRANQS THEN?
******
YET ANOTHER DUMB QUESTION. Probably a NUMBER of yards away and TIME was clearly an important matter here. I'll give you an example. An old roommate from the city wanted "pepper spray" and I asked her what was she going to do with it since 9 times out of 10 the victim can not pull it and activate it quick enough. I then asked her what was she going to do say "Excuse me a minute while I get my...!" ...SAME thing here...I can see it now...the cops saying "Hold on there fella while we go get those tranqs so we dont have to use real bullets!"

KNOCK IT OFF! NOW!

how did two cops get to be in a position that several zookeepers trained in using the tranq guns were unable to be in?
*****
DUUUUUH! BECAUSE from the video footage THEY were the FIRST ones that were ABLE to react!

I am THOROUGHLY DISAPPOINTED in whay you are saying...AND also QUITE surprised!

...but I still loves ya! ;)

I don't blame the cops I don't blame the zookeepers I don't blame the kids I don't blame you two at all.

I blame CBS-radio news and AP, Reuters, and USA Today for having such badly incomplete "soundbites only" coverage of the story to allow an otherwise intelligent person like myself be so easily led into making incorrect conclusions.

Never ever believe sounds bites are the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. There are people out there who think that 98% of dog attacks on humans are by 'Pit Bulls' because when the breed is unknown but fits certain criteria (which cover a lot of breeds), it will be a pit-bull type (or just a pit bull), if it is a pit-bull, that gets the headlines and if it is a poodle you see 'savage dog bites child'.

Just wanted to say that I love the stories you bring to us, even if I don't always agree with your assessment. Your thoughts and comments always keep me questioning myself, because when someone I respect has different views than my own, I have to sit back for a sec and say, hmmm...am I right? Is there a right? Sometimes I conclude that I am right, at least for me, but I have to think about it.

Thanks!

Yeah..I got all worked up over first hearing about it too...es why I dug up any and all old contacts I had!

My apologies handsome one...I know you were just venting...which made me want to vent about what you said and YUUUUUUUUUUUK...what a circle!!!

Loves ya LOTS!

after finally finding more extensive reports, there's some interesting things about it:

the most complete stories i've seen so far (that don't involve registrations) don't mention any taunting that led up to the escape.

the guns used to kill the animal were rifles owned and provided by the staff, not their own pistols. One can imply from this that they had the guns trained on the animal as they approached (you don't quick-aim a rifle the way you could a pistol and hope to get anything approaching an accurate shot). this definitely implies that they were in effect threatening the gorilla, so to a certain degree they are partly responsible for the charge. was there an alternative option? possibly, possibly not. i'll accept that in spite of my emotional reaction, i'm certainly not the one to decide. i'll let the investigations continue.

as long as something is learned from this, then i'll rest a little easier on it.

on a side note, gorilla fighting tactics came out in this -- its probably the one case where people can actually learn something. It *BIT* people. It just strikes me as odd that an animal who is primarily a vegetarian resorts to biting flesh over other options in combat.

"If this elaborate display is unsuccessful, and the intruder persists, the male will the rear his head back violently several times. Then he will drop on all fours and charge toward the intruder. In general, when they charge they do not hit the intruder, only running close to them. This demonstration of aggression maintains order among separate troops and reduces the possibility of injury." -- this site

so really what caused this rampage of a nature which so annoyingly supports a stereotype that science has been trying to dispell for over a hundred years?

Picture this...

I encounter your kids wrongly taunting an animal at a zoo. I take your kids and tell you you arent getting them back.

You go home and tell Cyd. UH-OH!

Like she's gonna let THAT happen.

Cyd goes and finds Holly.

I explain to Cyd what happend and return children.

Cyd still crushes me like a medieval tin can...which is FINE...I took her kids.

Ever see what primates do when another of their pack tries to hone in on another's young...trust me...ya DONT wanna see!

Just thought you might find it a welcome comic relief for the day!

I sure as hell did!

LOLOLOLOL*snort*LOLOLOL

PS: Are you guys coming over Saturday for a relaxing day at my and Ike's place???

cyd's sick. really sick. as in it'll be pnuemonia if the current round of antibiotics doesn't do its job. bad enough 2 weeks in bed's gonna kill all of her vacation time this year (provided she stays at the same company...i'm pushing her to go job-hunting from her laptop).

so between my efforts of doing something with the garage while the weather's nice tomorrow, i'm babysitting her this weekend and we're not going anywhere.

our original plans prior to all the crap were to go to see her friends in jersey, so already its another downer on a down time.

thanks anyways

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!

I HOPE its not pneumonia!~

IF ya want help babysitting and working around the house...lemme know and dont hesistate or Ill BOP ya a GOOD one! *kidding*

I'm available Sunday....just lemme know!

LOTS of love to ya both,

Holly

lucky me, I get to call the doc tomorrow and find out if it is pneumonia or not.

$(*&#@)%(*$#@ $130 in prescriptions later... and that's just copays. I can't imagine what it would have been if I didn't have a prescription plan... OY.

What Cyd would do to you is NOTHING like what I suspect she would do to Joe for allowing the behavior or the kids for doing it (assuming the kids in question are old enough to reason a little bit).

You got THAT one right!

The most cyd is gonna do right now is breathe on you. *coff*

Cyd ain't leaving the couch most of the weekend, and likely most of the next two weeks.

*coff*

Firing 3 shots is signs you panicked, not signs you were being defensive, or asserting that you were "protecting civilians".

Sorry, but you hit a nerve here. This is absolutely incorrect and suggests that you could benefit from a little insight into police work and training.

There is no such thing as a guaranteed one-shot kill or one-shot stop from a handgun or small-caliber rifle round in the real world. The variables that go into degree of penetration and round expansion, contact with vital organs, adrenaline in the subject's system, tolerance for pain, etc. all contribute to the likelihood that one shot will not immediately stop the advance of an agitated attacker, especially a 300 pound one,gorilla or otherwise. That's why police officers have been trained at least since the 1980's to "double-tap", which is a quick two-shot (and in some circumstances, three-shot) burst to follow up the initial impact with a secondary, compounding blow. Firing three shots is not a sign that the officers panicked, it is a sign that they reacted exactly as their training had taught them to. Police officers are trained to shoot to neutralize the threat, not necessarily to kill, and that almost always requires the expenditure of more than one round.

As to your other comments regarding close-range attackers, or those armed with something other than a firearm, I'd be interested to see how you fared in some of the training exercises that simulate those situations. An attacker with a knife or a club is just as deadly as one with a firearm and can cover a distance of fifteen feet to put that weapon to use in less time than it takes for an officer to clear leather, nevermind manage to get off a round or two. Someone closer than that, which is usually the distance for even impolite conversation, poses even more of a threat and is therefore presents even more of an imperative to neutralize as quickly as possible.

If you still think that's "utter garbage" then perhaps you should try walking in my shoes or those of my fellow officers for a while.

no, i'll stand corrected by a trained professional's position anytime over my own ignorance.

I apologize if I offended.

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Edited: (was Oh I'm pissed of now...)

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Um...

I made some calls to some old friends...

Ok, new people to blame

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I just CRACKED myself up!

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